K Series - Any Good?

[Rocket]

Why is K series better than B? (Warning: this is a loaded question).

:)

[Turboteener]

Newer.

[IntegraType-R]

i'ma put my foot in my mouth.


But i'm a firm believer in saying k series is still over priced.. and pretty overrated for what u can do.

I understand the advancements in the head. and the way it flows..

I understand the oiling thats advanced in the bottem end, as well as the Cam angles and etc etc .. I already know all this, you all know i've been in the game pretty long..

For the Amount of money, to swap a k series into a integra.. i could have built a turboed gsr and made 500whp..

I've spent probably 2k on my new build.. and will make MORE then a bolt on / cammed k24/k20 setup..rev higher, and it'll give me what i want..



There's my answer.. rocket :P

is the b series the future of honda? No, we all know the k series will rain sooner or later..

is the b series still rolling with the k series and will be for sometime.. Yes it will.

The k series still has alot of undiscovered talent..i'll leave it at that..

[Rocket]

1. You can get a K24 Accord engine for $575 on ebay. Not bad.

2. Oiling system improvement?

[Natural Aspirations]

What keeps me away from the k

Trans issues with syncro's and cable shifter
Cost of ems and lack of options
Seem to see issues with aftermarket cam wear
Cost of additional items required to install.

I like the b for the same reason I got into Honda's, simplicity.

[91B20ED]

i like the drop in instant power. you cant get that from any other factory honda engine. plus the 6 speed option is awesome. it is really a matter of opinion. everyone will have different feelings on this matter. kinda like the d vs. b battles i have seen, lol.

[FURYOF4]

The cost of k swaps is getting cheaper by the day.

Like NA the few problems that are keeping me away at the moment:
-tuning options, I hate that hondata has the market on K's. We need a Neptune or ectune k program.
-cable shifter
-shitty chain tensioners

Someday though Im sure I'll switch, the potential is extremely tempting.

[91B20ED]

The cost of k swaps is getting cheaper by the day.

Like NA the few problems that are keeping me away at the moment:
-tuning options, I hate that hondata has the market on K's. We need a Neptune or ectune k program.
-cable shifter
-shitty chain tensioners

Someday though Im sure I'll switch, the potential is extremely tempting.

looks like hybrid racing may have worked out the tesioner issues. need to see more testing though. and yes the cost is getting cheaper and cheaper, more and more companies are getting involed.

[IntegraType-R]

1. You can get a K24 Accord engine for $575 on ebay. Not bad.

2. Oiling system improvement?


ooo

The bearings now have grooves in them, that allow for oil to circulate all the way around the rod end, and crank shaft, rather then like stock oem b series bearings that are just flat..


you didn't know that?

[IntegraType-R]

http://www.034motorsport.com/oscthumbwm/w/550/h/545/q/95/f/jpg/fltr/wmi%7CphpThumb/watermarks/034watermark%7CC%7C20%7C0/hash/d08a7eeed2450d0c3804efccb44918b0/src/images/RodBearingSet2.7t.jpg


stock oem bearings


http://www.crossracingproducts.com/ProductImages/ACL%20Bearings.jpg

aftermarket.

[Rocket]

I don't think the rod bearing has an oiling groove.

[Natural Aspirations]

I don't think the rod bearing has an oiling groove.

Main bearings are narrower. I have herd of them being used in a B's similar to using a gsr bearing in an ls/b16 rod

[mar778c]

More displacement.

[T-MacK]

K-Series are newer and not sitting rotting away in some warehouse for god no's how long before you bought it......unlike most every other Honda engine. There getting cheaper by the day now and doing a swap is fairly straight forward with the aftermarket support it has.

[egb18c5]

As far as flowing (cfm), I remember readin that, cross section to cross section, the b series head flows more(its possible that I read it wrong). But of course these are 2 motors designed differently. I think what really makes the K so special is the vtc and the bottom end support, then u can add in the displacement and flow as a plus.

Reguardless, the k is soaring new heights, and it will continue to make more power. B series is not done yet (especially with the help of rocket and the new stuff he's showing us), but k is the future.

[Turboteener]

Grooved bearings aren't all that great. When you do that you sacrifice bearing surface area. Thus weakening the bearing. Although there is a cut in friction, but you have to weigh the trade offs.

[Rocket]

Anything good (designwise) here??

http://m24x.com/images/Blocks/K/K_Block.jpg

[IntegraType-R]

instead of a bolt on gridle.. its apart of the block now.

[Rocket]

That's a good point, but then D and H series have integral girdles too.

[IntegraType-R]

this one looks reinforced tho.. thicker.. able to handle more revs, higher whp?

[Turboteener]

That one is actually stronger than the D, H and early B girdles. While the early girdles are tied in in one plane they can still flex side to side as a unit. That setup actually ties the main caps into the sides of the block much better. It will increase the torsional stiffness of the block, thus lowering vibration and wear. Plus it makes it easier to do a low profile dry sump setup for road racing.

[patriot]

I see lots of oil drain passages.

[Rocket]

You see correctly.

[liveforphysics]

First feeling the difference from a B20V with 230bhp to a K20 with 225bhp was a shock.

Night and day difference.

The K is in it's own league.

I always loved the B-series. It was my favorite engine for many years.

However... the K absolute 100% dominates the B-series, in every way except tranny strength. I've also never had this much trouble with axles breaking. Just 2 days ago at the track, I broke right on the line. Twin disk clutch, slicks, and 6,500 launch RPM, preloaded, try to launch, and SNAP! Broke my LSD and mangled the end off my DSS axle. I'm height adjusted to have a good axle angle, I'm preloading, I'm running 9psi in the slicks with a 4.77 FD, DSS stage 2.8 axles (or whatever they call them now), and I eat axles like candy. :( Starts to get expensive when you have to buy a new set of axles (or other drivetrain parts) everytime you go to the track. :(


That's not any fault of the engine though, it's doing it's job of twisting that input shaft like a champ!

[IntegraType-R]

First feeling the difference from a B20V with 230bhp to a K20 with 225bhp was a shock.

Night and day difference.

The K is in it's own league.

I always loved the B-series. It was my favorite engine for many years.

However... the K absolute 100% dominates the B-series, in every way except tranny strength. I've also never had this much trouble with axles breaking. Just 2 days ago at the track, I broke right on the line. Twin disk clutch, slicks, and 6,500 launch RPM, preloaded, try to launch, and SNAP! Broke my LSD and mangled the end off my DSS axle. I'm height adjusted to have a good axle angle, I'm preloading, I'm running 9psi in the slicks with a 4.77 FD, DSS stage 2.8 axles (or whatever they call them now), and I eat axles like candy. :( Starts to get expensive when you have to buy a new set of axles (or other drivetrain parts) everytime you go to the track. :(


That's not any fault of the engine though, it's doing it's job of twisting that input shaft like a champ!


still putting in to a b series chassis is hard..and cost more then it should..

[SR20S13]

yes, for your average joe kid aka me a K-serious is not really worth it but hey if i had the money to build a nasty K24/k20 all motor beast i would in a second but like you mentioned before a B-series is cheaper, and easier to put into my car and why should it cost more then it should? its putting a motor into a car that it was never designed or ever put into? its just once people start perfecting the swap it will get easier

[SR20S13]

As far as flowing (cfm), I remember readin that, cross section to cross section, the b series head flows more(its possible that I read it wrong). But of course these are 2 motors designed differently. I think what really makes the K so special is the vtc and the bottom end support, then u can add in the displacement and flow as a plus.

Reguardless, the k is soaring new heights, and it will continue to make more power. B series is not done yet (especially with the help of rocket and the new stuff he's showing us), but k is the future.

i think you read that wrong haha a K head flows more then a B head, a K-series is alot like a F22a head correct? which flow about as much as a Nascar head haha

[CC Cylinder Heads]

i think you read that wrong haha a K head flows more then a B head, a K-series is alot like a F22a head correct? which flow about as much as a Nascar head haha

No, the B heads flow more per sq in of valve area.

[patriot]

You see correctly.

Just put an Evo X back together...not so many oil passages. 4 bolt mains though.

[IntegraType-R]

i think you read that wrong haha a K head flows more then a B head, a K-series is alot like a F22a head correct? which flow about as much as a Nascar head haha

the b series flows more..

the only advantage the k series has over the b series is in the bottem end and the more tuning of the cam angles..


like i said.. when i had my all motor itr, i walked alot of k20 swapped civics and integras

to me, down here.. for the money it cost, k series is still overrated..

[patriot]

Are the valve angles the same between the two's heads?

[liveforphysics]

the b series flows more..

the only advantage the k series has over the b series is in the bottem end and the more tuning of the cam angles..


like i said.. when i had my all motor itr, i walked alot of k20 swapped civics and integras

to me, down here.. for the money it cost, k series is still overrated..


Wrong on everything.

If you are walking K-series cars, its for the same reason that people come to the track and run 15s in there K-swapped EGs, or turbo GSR swap EGs, etc.


Also,there is no cheaper way to have a 250whp reliable NA build. If your build only requires 200-220whp that's peaky with no torque, then a B-series will be cheaper.

If you want to have a low 12 second daily driver NA civic with stock honda reliability, the K-series is the most economical way to get there.

[egb18c5]

i dont think K's are overrated, i think its people that make them sound overrated. a simple b20v can do more than enough (for most people), and a lot of people forget about the gearing too.

[IntegraType-R]

Wrong on everything.

If you are walking K-series cars, its for the same reason that people come to the track and run 15s in there K-swapped EGs, or turbo GSR swap EGs, etc.


Also,there is no cheaper way to have a 250whp reliable NA build. If your build only requires 200-220whp that's peaky with no torque, then a B-series will be cheaper.

If you want to have a low 12 second daily driver NA civic with stock honda reliability, the K-series is the most economical way to get there.


.. everyone on this board knows me and knew of my old setup..
and i'll explain, i had a gsr, with a 99 c5 swap, stock bottem end, fully built head. Hytech header, 3'' exhaust, jdm itr tranny with a ATS 4.9 FD. Major bolts on and etc etc, with my tuning on eCtune.
Car made 1 good dyno pass on my itb setup about a year ago making 207whp.
ran a 13.5 in it, on streets..
I put the pX manifold, with a 3'' intake , and ran at the track on a street tune and ran a 13.3 at 104mph.

With that said, I've ran against mutliple k20a's and k20z1 swapped cars.. put anywhere from 1 to 3 cars from a 30 punch.
My wife owned a 03 RSX-S, bolt ons and kpro, which i tuned, it was good for 14.4's and i put bus lengths on that..

The money i had invested in my all motor itr setup was arough 3k~4k.. Keep in mind this is all on a stock block too, most forget that..


and for your second point.. well thats just dumb..
I got a motor sitting here that will make around 240~250whp and its only ran me 2k so far.. in the build.. (thx donf)

i'm pretty sure it'll be high to mid 12's for me too.

I agree with the 3rd point.. to an extent..
But after you swap the shifter box, the cables, the mounths, the actual motor.. the price outweights the power output.. and you'd be just as fast if you swapped in a h22 or a itr motor in there.
I have tuned, plenty of stock itr motors and stock k20a2's.. streets its a good race, at the track they run around the same times..its a driver game stock for stock.


and btw.. the b series head does outflow the k series head..so its "not" wrong on every point.

[liveforphysics]

Someone running a B18C5 and talking about bang for the buck is pretty funny :P

Guys run 12.20-12.40s on bone stock K-swapped EGs if they know how to 60' the car.

I've personally seen the level of effort it takes to run 12.20-12.40s with a NA B-series. It's way way more time, effort, and money than spending 1-2 days to make some wiring changes, install a cable shift box, mounts, and run 2 fuel lines.

As far as flow rates...

http://www.team-integra.net/misc/images/mods/michaeldelaney/b16vsgsrheadstock.jpg

http://www.irekevin.com/forumn/crv_V_types_V_tsx.jpg


I think what you might be thinking is that a fully custom exotic porting job on a B-series head with larger valves and as much money in headwork as 2 K-series heads cost, can be made to flow as well as a stock K-series head.

[IntegraType-R]

Someone running a B18C5 and talking about bang for the buck is pretty funny :P

Guys run 12.20-12.40s on bone stock K-swapped EGs if they know how to 60' the car.

I've personally seen the level of effort it takes to run 12.20-12.40s with a NA B-series. It's way way more time, effort, and money than spending 1-2 days to make some wiring changes, install a cable shift box, mounts, and run 2 fuel lines.

As far as flow rates...

http://www.team-integra.net/misc/images/mods/michaeldelaney/b16vsgsrheadstock.jpg

http://www.irekevin.com/forumn/crv_V_types_V_tsx.jpg


I think what you might be thinking is that a fully custom exotic porting job on a B-series head with larger valves and as much money in headwork as 2 K-series heads cost, can be made to flow as well as a stock K-series head.

b series head flows more per sq inch of valve then the k series.

[IntegraType-R]

No, the B heads flow more per sq in of valve area.

See above.

[IntegraType-R]

Someone running a B18C5 and talking about bang for the buck is pretty funny :P



Thats the motor, that came with the car when i bought it from a shop..
it was bone stock, with an intake, it made 163whp stock ecu on a dynodynamics.. anyone who knows about how low those dynos read vs a dynojet i was mid 180's bone stock on a stock ecu for a c5 swap.

I never touched the block, and was running a trap speed that spoke of 12's on street tires..
The head, and bolt ons, and my tuning is what the car got,
that was all motor, lets not get into the fact i ran nitrous on the car a few times, with anywhere from a 50 ~ 100 shot direct port on the car..

I was simplely speaking that if you look at the FACTS which are

B series is a direct drop in into any honda chassis almost with minimal modding..
you pay for the money and allow for a small tid of extra money to drop in and bam, your done.

K series requires mounts, shift linkage and box( you gotta find this crap btw)
Different engine harness, you gotta buy the hybrid-racing.com wiring conversion , I work with one of the owners from time to time, and its overpriced as fuck for my wallet and i'm sure others..and i make a good amount of money as a police officer... not to mention anything else u wanna do
your looking at 4500 max for a itr swap into a teg vs almost 6~7k for a k20a2 swap into a integra..

to run almost the same times..
i already stated, k seriers was infact the future.. just not right now.

[liveforphysics]

B-series = 8.54cm^2 of intake valve face area.

K-series = 9.61cm^2 of intake valve face area.

~12% difference in valve face area. Larger difference in flow than 12%

Also, face area isn't what matters with a valve, it's curtain area, which is only a 6% difference.


I am curious what makes the measurement of what an engine flows with respect to valve size into being some degree of benchmark?

Everybody has put in a B-series or two in a day. It's certainly very easy. I also found the K-swapping to be very simple and easy. Yes, it requires a few more steps. It still was easily finished in a weekend.

It costs more money. It also offers things the B-series can't. It's a different choice to make. I personally could never go back, a couldn't be more happy with the engine. I am glad you are also happy with your engine.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[CC Cylinder Heads]

RLZ and I are wrong again. liveforphysics is right. History is repeating itself.

[IntegraType-R]

B-series = 8.54cm^2 of intake valve face area.

K-series = 9.61cm^2 of intake valve face area.

~12% difference in valve face area. Larger difference in flow than 12%

Also, face area isn't what matters with a valve, it's curtain area, which is only a 6% difference.


I am curious what makes the measurement of what an engine flows with respect to valve size into being some degree of benchmark?

Everybody has put in a B-series or two in a day. It's certainly very easy. I also found the K-swapping to be very simple and easy. Yes, it requires a few more steps. It still was easily finished in a weekend.

It costs more money. It also offers things the B-series can't. It's a different choice to make. I personally could never go back, a couldn't be more happy with the engine. I am glad you are also happy with your engine.

Best Wishes,
-Luke
very happy with my motor..

[Uncle Dave]

This is the reason I asked about K swap track cars yes a K makes more power yes it has a better set of gearbox ratio's but I have yet to see one dominate on the the track other than drags.
Regards Uncle Dave

[Natural Aspirations]

Guys run 12.20-12.40s on bone stock K-swapped EGs if they know how to 60' the car.



Plenty of guys also running 13.5's in K20 swapped Eg's too. Personally I have seen more slow ones than fast ones. Cookie walked on a few and while may have cost just as much as a K, it was simple and I didnt have to worry about the rockers eating my cams.

Yes the K has the capability to make more power, but not quite as easily tuned and doesn't seem to be as durable,

[Turboteener]

Luke, come on, that chart is in no way any kind of an accurate respresentation of reality. No one flows heads at 10" if they have any understanding of how an engine works. No one who knows what they are doing will believe any conversion factor is accurate when it comes to flow rate. You can't convert from 10" to any other number accurately.

The second chart has no depression level at all. Can't compare apples to goats.

28" may be the industry standard, but the only way to properly compare heads is to put them both on the flow bench and run them back to back with the exact same conditions present. That is the only accurate way to compare.

Now as for airflow per valve square in. Who cares? That is a useful tool in bench racing, but is pretty much irrelevant to the real world. The numbers are what they are. Ported or not one will flow more than the other. Use that info to make the choice based on your goal and application.

As more time passes, the K will get better and cheaper. Honda is now using the K motor across the board as its premium engine. They will be pretty easy to come up with now. Now more F series, H Series, etc to dilute the market. You can get a K in many places and parts are getting cheaper.

If you want a measley 250WHP, don't waste any money on a B or K. Put a turbo on a D series and make that in a super reliable package that is relatively cheap.

Now I haven't gotten to play with a K yet, Have one, but it is down on the list. One thing that many of these engines have that I don't like is the oil drains. There ain't enough of them for a true high performance engine and in many cases they aren't very efficient. I noticed this on the Prelude motor, they oil drain backs point the oil right on top of the rod journals. That creates more windage loses than necessary.

I will probably be using a K in my race car, because it offers an advantage the B doesn't I can mount it on the opposite side of the driver. That is a big advantage in road racing.

[Rocket]

Good discussions.

Remember, there's a difference between what a motor can do and what people are getting out of the motor. Those are many times two different things especially when builds have yet to be perfected. I still remember reading FAQs and on Temple of VTEC how people ported GSR heads and lost power, or how you couldn't find a better cam than ITR, LOL.

Sorry, K is better. People just need to put in the time. Ks are easily shattering records set by Bs.

[patriot]

Sorry, K is better. People just need to put in the time. Ks are easily shattering records set by Bs.

As they should. New engines and cars should be able set new levels in performance. Too bad most american cars are hardly an improvement over their mid-90's counterparts.

[Turboteener]

As they should. New engines and cars should be able set new levels in performance. Too bad most american cars are hardly an improvement over their mid-90's counterparts.

Really? The LSX is not better than the standard SBC or LT1? The Ecotech is no better than the old Iron Duke or Quad Four? The 4.6 litre is no better than the 5.0.... (Oh wait that slipped out there sorry about that, nevermind.) The Chrysler whatever isn't better than those old bunk ass Chrysler V8s? The SRT4 isn't light years beyond the old 2.5litre turbo motors?

Everyone has improved, so more than others.

[liveforphysics]

Luke, come on, that chart is in no way any kind of an accurate respresentation of reality. No one flows heads at 10" if they have any understanding of how an engine works. No one who knows what they are doing will believe any conversion factor is accurate when it comes to flow rate. You can't convert from 10" to any other number accurately.

The second chart has no depression level at all. Can't compare apples to goats.

Second chart is 28" of H2O, and yes, you are right, it was definitely an unfair comparison, and flowing at 10" is a useless figure. Early ones tend to do around 255-265cfm stock, and later ones around 250-260cfm due to trend increases in core shift.

Now as for airflow per valve square in. Who cares?

I couldn't agree more, and I was trying to communicate that point. I think you did a better job by simply saying "who cares", which is a good summary.

As more time passes, the K will get better and cheaper. Honda is now using the K motor across the board as its premium engine. They will be pretty easy to come up with now. Now more F series, H Series, etc to dilute the market. You can get a K in many places and parts are getting cheaper.

Yep, I've got about $7,500 into my entire K-hatch, including K-pro, header, twin-disk clutch, axles, GSR brakes, and the 1992 civic shell. It's been the best car for the money that I've ever owned so far.

If you want a measley 250WHP, don't waste any money on a B or K. Put a turbo on a D series and make that in a super reliable package that is relatively cheap.

Bahh... Turbo cars are so ghey feeling to drive. NA provides a different driving experience. Even a 300-350whp D-series doesn't give me the smiles I get from flogging on my NA K-series. This is also an apples to oranges comparison.

Now I haven't gotten to play with a K yet, Have one, but it is down on the list. One thing that many of these engines have that I don't like is the oil drains. There ain't enough of them for a true high performance engine and in many cases they aren't very efficient.

When you have a fully roller valvetrain, the amount of oil you need to send to the head decreases by a large margin. This means less oil volume that needs to return to the pan, which is the much better way to handle things for a performance engine.



I will probably be using a K in my race car, because it offers an advantage the B doesn't I can mount it on the opposite side of the driver. That is a big advantage in road racing.


I think you will find you the rate that the K-series pulls gears from any RPM to be a pretty nice advantage in your racing as well.


It is an absolutely 100% superior engine. This is why as far as I'm aware, every class of governed racing from road race to drag race requires substantial weight penalties for the cars using the K-series engine. This is required to help level the field to maintain some diversity in engine choices, as all Honda racing would otherwise be simply dominated by the huge advantages provided by the K-series.

Best Wishes,
-Luke

[liveforphysics]

Good discussions.

Remember, there's a difference between what a motor can do and what people are getting out of the motor. Those are many times two different things especially when builds have yet to be perfected. I still remember reading FAQs and on Temple of VTEC how people ported GSR heads and lost power, or how you couldn't find a better cam than ITR, LOL.

Sorry, K is better. People just need to put in the time. Ks are easily shattering records set by Bs.

Very true Rocket.

I remember the crazy sleeved, custom crank, B21 vtec builds that had like $10k into them, and everybody was amazed they could reach 230whp. Now it's quite common to have budget builds exceed those levels.

K-series has had a lot of development as well. A few years ago, it was an amazing achievement to have a 300whp pump gas K-series. Now you can bolt one together on a budget from off-the-shelf parts and no headwork or anything special needed.

On the far end of things, I think we've all seen some dyno's of racing K-series builds pushing into the 380-410+whp range. I don't remember seeing racing B-series engines ever achieve close to that level.

The engine has a whole lot of advantages over the B-series, which is also an excellent engine.

[liveforphysics]

As they should. New engines and cars should be able set new levels in performance. Too bad most american cars are hardly an improvement over their mid-90's counterparts.

There was a period from about 1980 to about 1994 where domestic engine development was badly stagnant.

As Turboteener all ready said, these last 5-10 years have been glory years for domestic engine improvement.

[jrobson]

Are the valve angles the same between the two's heads?
Nope they aren't.

[patriot]

Nope they aren't.

Finally...lol