RLZEngineering V2 CNC Head - Boosted Results

[Rocket]

As many may know I made a post re V2 CNC headwork for the P72 head on Honda-Tech showing folks a level of port machining only seen in F1 and Nascar. This program was developed by Brad at RLZEngining using top of the line CAD modeling and then machining perfected on state of the art, ultra-rigid 16,000lbs Haas CNC machining center.

Now for the "meat", I got off the phone with Brad yesterday, and that they just dynoed a "cookie-cutter" 2.0L turbo (2L, Wiseco 9:1 shelf pistons, ITR cams, 62mm GT35 Turbo) with the V2 head. Results, it blew the doors off of any of the previous cookie cutters. Maxxed out the turbo with 700whp with 35lbs of boost, spooled 1500 rpms sooner, and made 485ft-lbs tq instead of the avg of 420lbs they've always seen before with previous cookie-cutters.

Brad was telling me he likes a certain CNC ex port for high boost, larger turbine turbos. Looks like he maybe on to something.

[Some people may ask why doesn't Brad come out and post and talk about what he's doing? Answer is he has a hard time talking about himself and all his projects; he just ain't a "journalist." Good news is that I talked him into having me do the talking since I write a mile a minute zand understand the concepts and technology he has developed and uses. It's a win-win for the community and Brad. It's time people get a better idea of what's been going on at RLZ]

[FURYOF4]

Great results! Any pics of the dyno sheet?

[Rocket]

I'll talk to Brad to see if he can forward me the dyno sheets.

[Turboteener]

CNC doesn't make the head special, the proper port configuration however does. The nice thing with a CNC is the ability to replicate it easily once a successful profile is found. Congrats to Brad on designing another successful profile.

How do the flow numbers look?

[Rocket]

That's correct. CNC is just a tool, albeit a very sophisticated tool. But if you need to do some "dramatic" porting and change the size/geometry of the port, hand porting takes days/weeks while a CNC will take an hour, lol. "Polishing" doesn't count as porting.

Flowchart of big valve V2 P72 Port

http://m24x.com/images/Heads/BVTEC/CNC/RMv2P72.jpg

[CC Cylinder Heads]

Unfair {others}{others}

[Turboteener]

That's correct. CNC is just a tool, albeit a very sophisticated tool. But if you need to do some "dramatic" porting and change the size/geometry of the port, hand porting takes days/weeks while a CNC will take an hour, lol. "Polishing" doesn't count as porting.

Agreed. Don't you have to have a hand worked port to digitize in the beginning anyway though? I assume you mean it will do the really hard part to an already well developed port and you can save time by making the small changes to bring up the flow numbers.

The Brand X head flow about what my D series head flows. Maybe you can come up with a port design for the lowly D motor that can be digitized. I would be happy to send you a head or two to work with.

[egb18c5]

(off topic) rocket, you have an email that i can reach you at? i cant send pm's yet lol

[Rocket]

RocketMartin@yahoo.com

[DC_Legacy]

Nice, any word on pricing and packaging yet Bob?

[SOHCinWA]

I wish someone would take the time to do a D series head... They seem to be getting more popular these days... But most D guys are hella cheap.

[Rocket]

The V2 ports were designed in CAD and does not have any limitation or imperfections of hand porting and then digitizing.

[MAX_CFM]

I wish someone would take the time to do a D series head... They seem to be getting more popular these days... But most D guys are hella cheap.


That's everyone nowadays ..

I have changed my pricing to Suite these tough times ....

I would like to do a D Head ...

I have done some crazy ones .. and they flow good

for the valve sizes in there ..

The D head does have some good design factors

The short ports make it a breeze to get the Cross section right ...

[SOHCinWA]

I would love to have a BIG valved. Ok Huge valved, bigger seats and all head.

[Turboteener]

The V2 ports were designed in CAD and does not have any limitation or imperfections of hand porting and then digitizing.


Since I am kinda low speed, I don't understand this. Are you saying you drew up a port from scratch and then modified it in your CAD program? Or did you digitize a stock port and modify it in the software and then convert it to machine code? I would think it is harder to draw a port from scratch and get the relationships to the rest of the casting correct, than it would be to scan a stock port and go from there.

I wouldn't mind being a test bed for a new D head, but my engine is not a good specimen for testing. I am not looking for 600+hp, I am looking for 350-400 and a power curve that is wide and flat for road use and track use. Having a car that comes off the corners harder is a more important that all out top end power like drag racers use.

[Rocket]

100% designed from scratch using splines and curves. When you scan/digitize you are going to pick up all the imperfections of hand porting. 100% CAD design skips this step. So No Garbarge In, No Garbarge Out.

[Clean DC2]

Did you use splines and curves to generate a tool solid for subtraction or did you use free form features to manipulate the transitions to create varible radi? Just curious.

[Rocket]

Surface normals are used to tweak and finalize the shape. The tool profile/path is a separate (undisclosed) process in the CAM phase.

[Clean DC2]

That didn't really answer my question...what software was used to create the model?

[Rocket]

A couple different software programs are used in the CAD design phase. Sorry, the software programs are "under wraps."

[Clean DC2]

I understand. I am only curious because thats what I do for a living. Look forward to seeing the parts in action though!

[Rocket]

Yeah, I see you posted you have Fanuc robots.

There's always a fine line about educating customers versus educating competitors. Since you are in the business you know not to open your doors to people who want you out of the game. I know for sure there are people/competitors lurking here to do reconn on what we'redoing. We do reconn on them too, but they don't have anything innovative, lol.

[Clean DC2]

Thats why you don't see pictures of the robots with the equipment! :) I started my career in Aerospace(where you can't even speak to co-workers about the project you are on)...Like I said, I understand...but it's always worth a try to ask as a matter of conversation.

[Turboteener]

The big thing I am wondering about is the CAD program can't take into account core shift and casting differences like a human can? So how do you get around that part of the port work? I understand an optimal port, just am having a disconnect somewhere in the description. If you need to we can take it to PMs.

[Rocket]

That's a good point. Heads with alot of core become big valve heads.

[Clean DC2]

Is there really that much core shift when the casting print points are so close together? I wouldn't think so.

[Rocket]

Most B16s intake ports "overshoot" the valve seat by 0.020 to 0.060. Chamber depths are also all over the place.

K castings are far superior and don't have these problems.

[Clean DC2]

That's a lot more then I would expect over that distance. However, with machined datums C and D located first within reference to A and then subsequently machined by process...as long as you use the same datums to develop the theoretical centers of each port, I would think this could be easily adjusted to deal with the core profile tolerance?

[Rocket]

Here's a pic showing B16 ports from the chamber side. This is actually a good B16 casting. Most are much worse. The shift here (seen as a ridge under the valve seats) is a lil less than 0.010.

http://m24x.com/images/Heads/BVTEC/DSC01891.JPG

[jrobson]

That's a lot more then I would expect over that distance.
Unfortunately most automotive components are not precision parts, even if we want to believe it so much :D

[Rocket]

That's a lot more then I would expect over that distance. However, with machined datums C and D located first within reference to A and then subsequently machined by process...as long as you use the same datums to develop the theoretical centers of each port, I would think this could be easily adjusted to deal with the core profile tolerance?

The seats and guide hole locate the valves. You don't want to be moving these to make up for shifted ports. The cams and shaft mounted rocker arms are not going like the valves moved 0.020 to 0.060.

[MAX_CFM]

I understand. I am only curious because thats what I do for a living. Look forward to seeing the parts in action though!


If you look on my website ...

I Have a few pictures of the models ...

Most of the pictures are just imported into other software for the pictures ...

The process I use .. Came from The Toyota F1 program

I really cant talk much about it ..

[Clean DC2]

The seats and guide hole locate the valves. You don't want to be moving these to make up for shifted ports. The cams and shaft mounted rocker arms are not going like the valves moved 0.020 to 0.060.

Thats not what I meant at all. I don't know where the print points on a head casting are or what cast features get machined in process later. I was only implying machined features are located back to datum surfaces or datum locations, such as two dowel pins(C-D) relative to a surface(A). If there was core shift in the casting process at the ports as indicated, you would still be able to find theoretical center, which would assist in the CNC porting? Maybe I am way off in my thinking here, I apologize.

[Uncle Dave]

There is so much to look for when setting up datum's with the factory heads
I found it very quickly when I was doing my combustion chamber design work.
Regards Uncle Dave

[Turboteener]

I was wondering about that a while back. When you have a raw casting is there a procedure to start with. In theory all subsequent operations would be based on the accuracy of that first operation. Is there a surface that is more precisely cast than the others?

[Rocket]

That's absolutely correct. We use factory CNC data points, and runners centered based on a model of the head with 16 runners relative to absolute data points. That's all been mapped out. Bore spacing, among other things, is mapped out etc.

When you have core shift, on side of the port get cuts more and the other side gets cut less or not at all.

[Clean DC2]

That's absolutely correct. We use factory CNC data points, and runners centered based on a model of the head with 16 runners relative to absolute data points. That's all been mapped out. Bore spacing, among other things, is mapped out etc.

When you have core shift, on side of the port get cuts more and the other side gets cut less or not at all.

Ok, I am on the same page then. {oothers-}

Nice to be on a site where real information is discussed!

[Uncle Dave]

The best part is what RLZ and Rocket are working on is it brings HIGH END cyl head work to the everyday person and at a very small cost this really is the furture of engine developments.
Regards Uncle Dave

[Rocket]

Glad you guys appreciate.

In Brad's own words, "It blows away any of his hand done heads."

[fkned]

The best part is what RLZ and Rocket are working on is it brings HIGH END cyl head work to the everyday person and at a very small cost this really is the furture of engine developments.
Regards Uncle DaveFor those of us head porters who can't afford CNC machines or access to them I don't know if "thank" is the word I'm looking for,lol.{sad}
But I always appreciate good work!

[jrobson]

There are sometimes some very good deals on used equipment going in the US, especially now, this is a great place to start if you are on a budget and have some capital, you can get far this way. You don't have to invest in your own probes and expensive software in the beginning, you can have the heads captured and even programmed elsewhere, just do the machining yourself. That is if you want to go that route.

[fkned]

I'm aware of places that will digitize and cut heads for you but you have to have enough of a volume for a particular head port to justify the cost and make a profit in the end.

[Turboteener]

Some of those places have been known to steal the design when they digitize it and use it themselves. Protect yourself if you do that.

[mar778c]

In Brad's own words, "It blows away any of his hand done heads."

That is really saying something. Brads VJ's have been known to yield significant power increases. My interest is very peaked.

[Rocket]

The casting process is "imprecise" to say the least. CNC ports, especially CAD designed ones, "true" them up. Nascar, F1, ProStock, etc. You name it, and it will be CNC.

[I AM WEASEL]

That's absolutely correct. We use factory CNC data points, and runners centered based on a model of the head with 16 runners relative to absolute data points. That's all been mapped out. Bore spacing, among other things, is mapped out etc.

When you have core shift, on side of the port get cuts more and the other side gets cut less or not at all.

How are the factory CNC data points and all relative information collected? Is a stock casting digitized to collect this data and then it is modifiedfor the final CNC port/polish, or is there no digitizing whatdoever?

[MAX_CFM]

How are the factory CNC data points and all relative information collected? Is a stock casting digitized to collect this data and then it is modifiedfor the final CNC port/polish, or is there no digitizing whatdoever?


Its a complicated process ..

To many Details to explain ...

A lot of the process We developed In-house

So some of the things we do .. We keep them under wraps

Sorry hope you under stand

[Rocket]

I understand the interest in the process, and it is the process that makes the difference. That is exactly why the details cannot be shared. You would be amazed at the amount of e-stalking that takes place.

[SOHCinWA]

I understand the interest in the process, and it is the process that makes the difference. That is exactly why the details cannot be shared. You would be amazed at the amount of e-stalking that takes place.
I am not surprised at all really. There are companies that delegate people to troll forums for products released just to copy.. All the time.

[Uncle Dave]

There are companies that delegate people to troll forums for products released just to copy.. All the time.

Thats the one of things I really hate about the internet :rolleyes:
Regards Uncle Dave

[Rocket]

Some outfits have trollers, e-thuggers etc. I've dealt with the e-thuggers first hand. Thus, the occasional "Rocket rage" you see sometimes, lol.

[DonF]

You are just paranoid. And yes, they are watching. :)

[MAX_CFM]

You are just paranoid. And yes, they are watching. :)


Who is They ?

we havnt shown the good stuff yet ;)

[liveforphysics]

100% designed from scratch using splines and curves. When you scan/digitize you are going to pick up all the imperfections of hand porting. 100% CAD design skips this step. So No Garbarge In, No Garbarge Out.

You can grind and tweak, test flow, grind and tweak, test flow, grind and tweak, test flow until you get a head that performs very well. You can bondo the port walls to add back material if you take too much out, and continue to grind and tweak until you get something that seems to be close to optimized. Then you digitize the port with a 5 axis stylus. It gathers lots of points that it makes a shape from. Then you can easily apply whatever data/surface smoothing filters to the surface of the created shape you like if you don't wish to have the imperfections left by hand porting.

That method works well enough for Reher Morrison and other high level facilities, and they even have the freedom of starting with blanks for head castings, where as we gotta start from shapes Honda gave us for non-welded applications.

[IntegraType-R]

whats one of these jobs cost, say on my gsr head.

[ghostofnyc]

Whats the difference with the RM/RLZ CNC headporting and the IPG/RLZ CNC headporting program?

[pat lehmann]

very cool guys. wish my job was more innovative

[Rocket]

Whats the difference with the RM/RLZ CNC headporting and the IPG/RLZ CNC headporting program?

Good question.

Both machined at RLZ in North Carolina. With RM you get to work with me, Rocket. That may mean something or nothing to people. :)

[Runnin Rebel]

lol. one thing i like so far is the fact that you respond to ppl and pretty much tell it like it is.

check ur mail however. i am almost ready to sort my stuff out. let me know.

[ghostofnyc]

Good question.

Both machined at RLZ in North Carolina. With RM you get to work with me, Rocket. That may mean something or nothing to people. :)

hummm would cfm be diff between the two programs

[Rocket]

Just depends. I help people select parts and technology that is best for their goals--this has always been the value RM brings to the table.

[snm95ls]

I just looked through RLZ's price list. That is an incredible deal IMO. I may have to send a head out to them if/when I decide to do a serious build.

[SQ is the SQUAD]

are there any cnc port set ups for a high boost crv p8r head? looking to get my p8r head done.

[patriot]

I just looked through RLZ's price list. That is an incredible deal IMO. I may have to send a head out to them if/when I decide to do a serious build.

I'm still waiting for them to send my head back... 6 months later

[MAX_CFM]

I'm still waiting for them to send my head back... 6 months later


haha thats not fair .. You told me to take my time after you sent it ..

its finished .. just need to ship it ..

[SR20S13]

can't seem to get your website to work

[egb18c5]

can't seem to get your website to work

same here

[patriot]

haha thats not fair .. You told me to take my time after you sent it ..

its finished .. just need to ship it ..

Oh I see. Somone bumps a thread about you and you come back from the dead. :P
Ship that thing to me Brad! :rolleyes: